21 February 2013

NoCo90: No Arminians in Heaven

The title of this post undoubtedly already has some people ready to throw darts. Please watch the video before you do.


If you have an idea or suggestion for an episode of NoCo90, contact No Compromise Radio on their Facebook page or via email at: info then @ then nocompromiseradio.com.

Additional Resources
NoCo90: Where Is Beth Moore's Husband?
Beth Moore's 'Sabbath Moment' Playdate with God
Jesus Culture and Judah Smith to Join Piper, Moore, Chan and Others at Giglio's Passion 2013

73 comments:

  1. Of course, there are no Calvinists in heaven either. They will finally learn the truth.

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    Replies
    1. Glenn,

      What exacly do you mean by your comment? Teresa

      Delete
  2. Teresa,
    I'm just turning the tables.
    I'm not an Arminian, nor am I a semi-pelagian, and yet I am also not a Calvinist. The problem is that I have never, ever met a Calvinist who will admit someone can be a non-Calvinist without being one of those others. With them it is either/or. And I believe Calvinism is one of the worst things that could have happened to the Church since Romanism.

    I know this is a Calvinist blog, and I don't mean to offend. I find Calvinists to be some of the most excellent apologists and yet I see them doing so with cognitive dissonance.

    If a Calvinist can say no Arminians or semi-pelagians will not be in heaven because they will realize their doctrine was wrong (as is implied), then I can say the same thing about them!

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    1. Thanks jsut wondering

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    2. Thank you Glenn. Like you, I'm neither Arminian nor Calvinist, first and foremost, because neither of those mortals died for my sins. I'm a born-again Christian, because Christ died for my sins. All who have come to Christ in true saving faith are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. They are known by their fruit, and I can see them in the light of 1 John.

      I haven't watched the video, but I'm guessing his point is this: the "Arminians" will have their wrong soteriological doctrine fixed in heaven, of course based on the dichotomous belief that Calvinism is the only other choice and is without error.

      The provocative title is not necessary. We are not to provoke one another. The world will know us by our love for one another, and 1 Cor 13 tells us what that love is like, and what our faith looks like without it.

      That's why I stay out of this whole soteriological debate issue. Frankly, in far too many cases, it's been handled in a sinful manner, where those of a differing/opposing view are practically treated like enemies, instead of beloved brothers and sisters.

      YSIC
      carolyn

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    3. @Glenn,

      So according to you Reformed Believers are "some of the most excellent apologists" yet you believe that "Calvinism is one of the worst things that could have happened to the Church since Romanism"... :0) Can you be more inconsistent and dichotomous Glenn? I don't think you can but what you definitively can is to be more substantive in your decrying of the faith of Christians. By the way, it may be news for you Glenn but the Roman church was never a part of the Christian Church so your vague and and ambiguous assertion about Romanism being a part of Church where Calvinism is a part does not stand any logical nor historical nor Scriptural scrutiny.

      ~ Despeville

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  3. Glenn, did you actually listen to the 90 second commentary?

    Nowhere was it mentioned that Arminians cannot go to Heaven. the video states that once an Arminian gets there they are no longer Arminian!

    You might want to take a quick listen.

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    1. Yes, I did Bill. And I never said it DID mention that Arminians can't go to heaven. He said that there will be no Arminians in Heaven and I just turned the tables and said the would be no Calvinists in heaven for the same reason the video said no Arminians would be in heaven. They will no longer be Calvinists because they would have learned the truth!

      Perhaps you need to read what I said vs what you thought I said.

      Delete
    2. Perhaps you need to understand the framework of reference the Pastor Mike is speaking from to see how inconsistent you are Glenn. By the way every time you pray to God to save a person from their fallen state and despite that state you actually are praying like a Calvinist which you then decry as as not knowing the truth... :P Is it possible that you are a closet Arminian Glenn?

      ~ Despeville

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  4. Gary this whole debate comes down to who is the first cause of salvation. Every morning you woke up lost and than one day you went to bed believing in the God of the Bible. Who does the Bible say caused that? There has to be a cause of the change. It's meaningless as to who you and I say caused the unbeliever to believe but what does the Word of God say? It's like a pass in your backyard with a friend. Someone threw the first pass and after that you both participated. Who caused the pass to begin? You both don't and you cannot receive the pass if it is never thrown to you. That's why the NFL never calls them wide choosers they are wide receivers because they need the ball thrown to them before they can catch it. It's really not confusing if you stick with what the Bible says.

    John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    No one can receive what is not thrown their way and this is clear that not everyone received him and verse 13 says God is the cause. So it's simple Everyone who believes will be saved and the ones that God saves are the same ones he enabled to believe so tell everyone the good news about the finished work of Jesus and the ones that respond are the elect. The ones that don't aren't missing out on anything because they don't believe God is real anyhow. No one ever goes to hell kicking and screaming that they were not allowed to believe they simply don't believe it is real or they would repent and believe. Thanks

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  5. oops I meant Glenn Sorry but then again you are not Arminian or a Calvinist see how confusing it was for me. I didnt know what to call you

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    1. Ray,

      How about you call me by my name, and that I am a Christian who takes his doctrine from the Bible and not from fallible men.

      Delete
    2. @Glenn,

      If so would you please dare to show us in the Bible where free will of men in matter of salvation is clearly taught and expounded? Please do and please do not confuse descriptive passages with descriptive passages as most do.

      ~ Despeville

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    3. Ooops, meant to say do not confuse descriptive passages with prescriptive passages and not: "do not confuse descriptive passages with descriptive passages"... :) I shouldn't be writing this late in the first place... My mind was clearly half a sleep :O)

      ~ Despeviille

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  6. Again sorry for the name goof it wasn't intentional. You can call me Roy or Calvin (just kidding). Ok this is good. So what does the Bible teach as the cause of everyone who believes salvation? Let's stick right to Scripture in context because if we do that we will have to agree because as we both know the author of that verse only intended it to mean one thing to those people at that time. Right? All we have to do is figure out the authorial intent and we will be of one mind and the same judgement as 1 Cor 1:10 speaks of

    1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

    See we HAVE to agree on this do we not?

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  7. Ray,
    I never took you goof as intentional, nor offensive. It happens. I'm guilty of it often.

    I am not going to get into a discussion about Calvinism because it goes nowhere, no one will change their own beliefs, and it is not edifying. I only wanted to make a point about the video.

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  8. Glenn no problem but please understand either both of us are wrong or one of us is right we are not both right. You say in your first post that the Doctrines of Grace are wrong but now you are not willing to discuss it? How can discussing Bible verses not be edifying? You wanted to make a point about the video and I wanted to make a point about your post about that video. I laid it out clearly and you have not responded to anything but that I got your name wrong. I just don't get how you can say someone is wrong and then leave them in their error. How is that Christian love? You have the truth and you won't love Pastor Mike enough to straighten him out? Why does he take the time to make these videos? Because he does love people enough to tell the truth. So there we have it Calvinists love all people and people of the unknown label don't love Calvinists

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    1. Ray,
      You demonstrated one of the problems I have with Calvinists. YOUR system has “Doctrines of Grace” while non-Calvinists have no doctrines of grace. YOUR system is “Reformed” even though Calvin was a johnny-come-lately in the Reformation (ever hear of a guy named Luther?).

      Discussing the Bible is indeed edifying - discussing the Calvinist interpretation isn’t. I leave Calvinists in their error because I’ve never found one willing to admit they are in error - so what is the point. I go with the instruction in 2 Tim. 2:23.

      Your claims of Calvinists loving people and non-Calvinists not loving people is so bogus! Calvinists DON’T really love non-Calvinists or they wouldn’t be calling them names which they dispute (I’m really tired of being called an Arminian or semi-pelagian or even - very often - heretic). As long as you are saved, if you want to hold on to false beliefs, why is it unloving for me to allow it? I'll suggest a book you can read - "Against Calvinism," by Roger E. Olson. Don't bother suggesting one for me from the Calvinist view - I have a whole shelf of them

      History has demonstrated that the discussion is time consuming with never any results, and I have better things to do with my time. You can have the last word - I'm done here.

      Delete
    2. Glenn all I asked you was who is the first cause of our salvation. Is it God or us? What's so hard about that question? Unless you believe in the Easter Bunny you have a 50/50 shot. Isn't it interesting that you won't answer it? I never called you a name other than Gary by mistake. I hope that's not some secret cult I never heard of Sorry if it is. I just don't get why you are so bent. You are the one who said Calvinists are wrong. I didnt say you were wrong I kust asked a question. You started this by doing exactly what you accused Pastor Mike of doing. He has no issues answering questions and giving Scripture to support his beliefs. I promise you he is not angry at you like you are at him. You said Calvinism is wrong now you should prove it. You say you have no doctrines of grace. So you are telling me that you are a born again Christian but you have never given thought to or have no position on the condition of man? How or who God calls his children? Who did Jesus die for? Can God be rejected? and can you lose your salvation. You have never pondered these things and decided what you believe about them? You really should as they are very interesting. I am pretty sure that it is not true that you have no positions on these issues so you do actually have your own doctrines of grace don't you?. As brothers should we not be able to learn from each other? Is 1 Cor 1:10 to be ignored? Are we sinning if we try to agree to disagree? We have a great way to settle this. All we have to do is open our Bibles and the answers are there. Wanna give it a try? It can be fun
      PS I know you told me not to recommend a book to you to prove Calvinism is true but I think I will anyhow. Please check these out. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Cor, 2 Cor etc etc All of them teach the Sovereignty of God in the salvation of man None of them teach the ability of man in his salvation So again Who is the first cause of our salvation?

      Delete
    3. Ray,
      Against my better judgment I have to make one last response because you misrepresented me.

      I didn’t say YOU called me names - I said that is the usual Calvinist thing to do, the first name being “Arminian” or “semi-pelagian.” Calvinists don’t seem to conceive that one can be non-Calvinist without being Arminian or semi-pelagian.

      I never said I didn’t have any “Doctrines of Grace” - I said that Calvinists claim THEIR system IS the “Doctrines of Grace,” meaning if you’re not part of the system then you obviously have no “Doctrines of Grace.”

      I never stated I had no beliefs about any of those issues you raised. I just said it is fruitless to discuss them with a Calvinist.

      Calvinism is NOT found in any book of the Bible without twisting the context to say what Augustine and Calvin said. And, no, it won’t be fun discussing it with you. I’ve been down that road with Calvinists too many times.

      By the way, I’m not “so bent.” Nor was I angry at the guy in the video; I just pointed out that I could say the same thing about Calvinist as he said about Arminians and Semi-pelagians (meaning anyone not a Calvinist).

      I just don’t want to get into a fruitless discussion.

      Delete
    4. Glenn,
      Call call me crazy, but you still have not answered my question. What happened to let your yes be yes and your no be no? I'm amazed that you will take the time to say you won't take the time but you can't answer a question any Christian should be able to answer in a second. This conversation doesn't have to be fruitless, you could actually say something of substance. That would be nice as so far I feel like I'm discussing health care with President Obama. I know you know the answer because you read Erin's blog.
      thanks.

      PS if you need a hint, please read Teresa's comments below. See, she cared enough to help you out.

      Delete
  9. Ray,

    I can answer your question....I know, I know, pick me....GOD almighty...Jesus Christ himself is the first cause of our salvation.
    Teresa

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  10. Glenn,

    I am not picking on you but why are you so offended by this video.

    What do you really believe glenn. Take calvinism and arminianism out of the picture and tell us what you believe concerning the essentials of our salvation from the Word of God. I went to your blogs and can find nothing of your statement of faith and what you believe.

    Please share. Teresa

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    1. Teresa,

      I wasn’t offended by the video. All I did was make a point that that person on the video could have the tables turned on him. It’s called proving his logic to be false.

      I don’t have a statement of faith on my blog because I never felt it to be necessary. I would think that anyone reading my blog would easily discern that my faith is traditional, orthodox Christian faith as taught in the Bible.

      If you must have something in writing, let me direct you to the doctrinal statement of the assembly I attend:
      http://www.faithb.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/doctrinal_statement.pdf

      I do disagree with them on one point - I am a post-trib rapture believe, as was the early church.

      Delete
    2. Thanks, Glenn. I was writing my previous comment at the same time that you posted this.

      Delete
  11. Ray,
    Of course I know the answer. But I'm not playing your games. One question leads to another. And you again demonstrate why it is fruitless - you had the audacity to make an ad hominem attack comparing me with Obama just because I won't play your game.

    Thank you for proving my point about Calvinists and name-calling.

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    1. Glenn I am not playing a game but I do love playing the game Catch Phrase. Ever try it? I was simply responding to your comments. I'm not mad at you I feel a little sorry for you because you believe in something you are too ashamed of to share with the rest of us.

      Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

      This says whoever is ashamed of Jesus and his Words. Look what some of those words are

      John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

      Glenn Jesus did not say you are not my sheep because you don't believe. He says they don't believe because they are not HIS sheep. So to believe you have to be one of his sheep. They couldn't or wouldn't attempt to make themselves one of his sheep because they didn't believe him to be telling the truth. He chooses/makes his sheep Right? So then the answer to the question of the day (according to the Bible) is that God is the cause of salvation for anyone who believes (why can't you just say it?) BUT not everyone believes but that is not our concern. Our job is to tell everyone the good news (even grumpy bloggers) and God saves who he will save. So do you agree with me on this? If not can you come down off you high horses and straighten me out because I actually believe this is what the Bible teaches. Teresa and I want to know if we should follow your blog. Before we can make that commitment we need to know what Glenn believes. Right now all we know is you don't like me, Calvinists or labels. Long walks on the beach maybe? Come on I'm just goofing around. Tells us about Glenn.

      Delete
    2. Ray,
      
Why do you feel so compelled to continue to misrepresent me? To continue to make false accusations?

      Where do you find anywhere in anything I’ve said which would lead you to accuse me of being ashamed of what I believe?!?!

      Just because I don’t want to play games with you? Because I don’t want to debate Calvinism with you?

      Then you accuse me of not liking you? I don’t even know you! I don’t like your continued attacks on me just because I don’t want to discuss Calvinism, and I find your behavior in this manner to be quite un-Christlike.

      I also never said I don’t like Calvinists - I have some very good Calvinist friends, and my shelves are full of books by good Calvinists teachers. What I don’t like is Calvinism/Augustinianism as a doctrine. What I don’t like are Calvinist claims that if you aren’t a Calvinist then you must be an Arminian or a semi-pelagian. What I don’t like are Calvinists claiming that what they teach are the “Doctrines of Grace” while implying if one isn’t a Calvinist then they have no “Doctrines of Grace.” What I don’t like are Calvinists claiming they are “Reformed” as if no other belief system is (especially when Calvin was a johnny-come-lately to the Reformation).

      And then you have to again attack me by claiming I’m on a high horse because I don’t want to engage you in a discussion on Calvinism (talk about one being on a high horse!).

      I just posted a comment with a link to the doctrinal statement of the assembly at which I attend. I subscribe to all the statements except one, and that has to do with the Rapture. My assembly’s stance is pre-trib and I am post-trib.

      I say Augustinianism/Calvinism (as summed up in TULIP) cannot be found in Scripture without twisting it to fit your system. You, as a Calvinist would say otherwise. We disagree on that point. So we must agree to disagree.

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    3. Glenn you need a sense of humor and you need to lighten up. We could have been born in Afghanastan 100 years ago and been blind to God's truth like most of mankind but instead we get to sit in a heated house and learn the truth about God. I have continued to put that truth forward in context to further our discusion but you don't want to stick to the Scriptures. Glenn 2 Christians cannot agree to disagree we must be of one mind and the same judgement because the unchanging Word of God is there for us to fall under and believe what it teaches. So now what?

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    4. Glenn here is the faith statement from my Church. I admit it you caught me Pastor Mike is my Pastor. You should listen to some of the sermons and then decide if he is one of those awful mean name calling Calvinists you keep hinting about. If you study the verses in our faith statement you will see the Doctrines of Grace are in every book of the Bible. In context and in plain view
      http://www.bbcchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6:statement-of-faith&catid=4:who-we-are&Itemid=5

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    5. Ray,
      To chalk up name-calling and other attacks as "humor" doesn't cut it.

      You keep saying you are putting forth truth, but what you keep wanting is a discussion on Calvinism. I pointed you to my beliefs - what more do you need?

      And, yes, two Christians can certainly agree to disagree. It's done all the time. We do not have to be of one mind in regards to MAN'S systems.

      You again, by the way, make an unfounded accusation, claiming that I don't want to stick to Scripture. Scripture isn't the topic - Calvinism is. And Calvinism's interpretation of Scripture is what you want to stick to.

      Why is it you have such a problem with me not wanting to debate Calvinism? It isn't going to happen. If you want to know my personal beliefs, I stated that I agree with the doctrinal statement I posted. THAT should settle it for you.

      The discussion is ended. I will not debate Calvinism. Game over. Pick up you TULIPs and find someone else to badger. I am unsubscribing this post. Have a nice day.

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    6. Glenn what verse tells us it's ok for Christians to agree to disagree? We need unity not division. I will leave you alone about salvation so you won't get upset anymore but please stay reading DNBS as you are getting the truth here. Stay and learn. Have you seen the other NoCo90's? Wanna talk about Beth Moore or signs and wonders? Do you subscribe to no compromise radio's podcast? Do you listen to Wretched Radio?

      Delete
    7. @Glenn,

      It has been interesting to watch your responses or rather lack of thereof to Ray but also very saddening at the same time. See you have plenty to say about why you do not like Calvinism, how wrong it is, who is Johnny and you even had the audacity to compare it to Romanism which shed the blood of tens of thousands of Reformed Christians. Yet with all of that you cannot point us to the Scripture to substantiate your assertion that Calvinism is wrong and false... Why is that Glenn? Why is it that Ray can easily and openly point you to the Scriptures to substantiate his faith and its understanding of salvation while you are avoiding that and repeatedly and instead reduce yourself to ambiguous decrying of Calvin and Augustine ? Your manifold and superfluous posts present no substance whatsoever for the claims you are making while Ray evidently and readily substantiated his points and from the very Word of God itself...Hmmm what a staggering difference between two of you. You right much about "mean, name calling Calvinits" but that is also bogus if not outright disinformative for "pelagian" or "semi-pelagian" or "Arminian" are not names but terms and theological ones too... Can you please stop using those terms as a canon meat for your agenda?
      So for you Calvinism is wrong because you say it is wrong plus you have "shelf of books about it" unfortunately looks like books of not high caliber given your infatuation with Olson who made a way for himself with intentional misrepresentation of historic Reformed Faith. While you do not have time to discuss this in depth and not enough even a time to quote appropriate Scripture in support of your "non Arminian" attack on Calvinism you had plenty of time to post your ambiguous, unsubstantiated accusations of Calvinism and great men of God such as Augustine and Calvin? :0) Tell you what, with that kind of mode of thinking you should definitively take the advantage of the deal I am offering you and all who could possibly take your pronouncements as serious and valid. See I have this beautiful bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn and I will cut you a staggering 90% off deal on it. Are you in? Don't ask me for a title, I have no time to discuss details like that either...

      ~ Despeville

      PS Glenn, is it possible that you are epistemologically unconscious Arminian? May the Lord of Glory bless you and shine His Grace on you and your ways and that by the way is entirely Calvinist-Husite-Waldesian-Augustynian-Pauline-Jesus like prayer...

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  12. Okay, I'm going to jump in here. And Glenn and I know we disagree on this issue, so I'm jumping in with Christian love and respect!

    Teresa beat me to it. I've obviously been watching the exchange here and while I don't have a problem with using a label (Calvinist, Arminian, etc) as a simpler way to identify what someone believes, I think it would be really helpful to the conversation, Glenn, if you clarified what it is you believe. We could just drop the conversation, but I think it's important for Christians who differ on this issue to be able to discuss it. When one "side" (and I hate to use that term) shuts out the other "side" then how can we help one another to grow? If we all step back and set aside our frustration, then perhaps we could have a fruitful conversation.

    Glenn, you also said that "Calvinism is NOT found in any book of the Bible without twisting the context to say what Augustine and Calvin said."
    Do you mean the doctrines of grace? If so, then that is a very bold claim to say that not one of those doctrines are found anyplace in Scripture. That claim carries with it some heavy implications.

    If we see a brother or sister who we believe is in error, shouldn't we love that person enough to take them to Scripture and discuss those differences? It doesn't mean we have to walk away agreeing about everything, but perhaps it would allow us to better understand where the other person is coming from.

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  13. I've been called a Calvinist for simply using verses directly from God's word that show that God chose us and predestined us-Eph. 1:5,11 while we were still "dead in our transgressions"-Eph 2:5. It's all God's GRACE. I've also been marginalized and have been gagged by rules of men on a forum -that I could not say what I believe the word of God actually teaches. The people running the forum were what I would "call" Arminians in their view because they believe in free will. Is that not the name given to describe those who hold such a view? I'm all for not ascribing Arminian or Calvinism labels on people.

    If I disagreed with the free willers, I was considered teaching false doctrine and my comment would be deleted. I finally told them that although I disagree with them and they disagreed with me, no Genuine Christian or Brother should be gagged to not be able to say what they believe backed up with Scripture what God's word actually teaches. We are to want to arrive at the truth. Yet, It was beginning to be in my estimation occultic and controlling. If we disagree, then it should be shown from God's word where. But rather than showing me by backing up their views with God's word, I was given their (opinions).

    anyways, if one is a brother or sister in Christ, I have no problem with worshiping the Lord alongside them. I ONLY have a problem when one is forced to side with their view or else the name calling, ad hominems, and straw men arguments begin. Very unChristlike..

    Who knows, when we get to heaven,, I can just hear the Lord saying, disagreements are all over now--- You're all wrong....Greet each other with a holy Kiss, hug and praise the Lord as ONE BODY in Christ!!

    but you know it's best to take it on the chin for not every hill is a hill worth dying on. For what good is it to even be right and not have LOVE for one another??

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  14. Glenn,

    I know you are leaving but what part of the TULIP do you not agree with or what do you agree with.

    I do think that all believer's hold to some form of one camp or the other or combination of the two. I happen to hold to TULIP because it is biblcal. Teresa

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  15. GLENN


    I am very disappointed that you have curled your tail and ran. Even on your statement of faith from the assembly you attend follows "some" points of TULIP, so how can you say that TULIP is unbiblical which is a direct attack on the word of God.

    I think the one comment of your that bothers me the most is when you said this....Of course, there are no Calvinists in heaven either. They will finally learn the truth. Take "calvinism" out of the equation.


    the truth about what Glenn. That God is totally Sovereign over everything, most of all our salvation.

    Prove to us by the scripture that TULIP is not scriptural from the greek true meaning. ALL, the whosoever, and so forth literally mean in the greek.... "all the believing ones"






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  16. @ Glenn E. Chatfield and anyone who would take his assertions seriously...

    Here is a final note from a man of God who serve the Lord of Glory faithfully and whom God used to proclaim the Saving Gospel in person to approximately TWENTY MILLION people in an age with no radio, no tv, no internet and limited press and limited travel. Was this man also deceived and in "need of truth" or almost as bad as Romanist pope which is what Glenn asserted without any substance whatsoever and repeatedly refusing to provide even a shred of that substance? Hmmm, read, compare it with the Word of God and ask God for light of guidance but do not jump on baseless "hurrah wagon" of superficial, emotional and frivolous rhetoric of anti Reformed Faith so popular in leavenjelycalism and which was seeded by Jesuits so long ago and still supported by same Roman Church directly or indirectly.

    Here is a part of the text that you will be wise to read and even wiser to take very seriously and prayerfully:

    " The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

    ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon from "A Defense of Calvinism'
    LINK to entire teaching: http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    Before the Lord,

    Despeville

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  17. Despeville are you Pastor Mike in disguise? (just kidding) You write really really well. Thank you for your posts. Thank you Teresa and Linda for participating too. Glenn come back. Where are you? Come out into the sunlight. Look how much we can all learn from each other. I am thrilled by the wisdom on display on this one tiny string of a blog. Glenn I would like it if we could email sometime. I can be reached at Ray@NoCompromiseRadio.com any time you wish. I hope to hear from you Thanks

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    1. @Ray,

      No way, I am not :0) but I would like to meet him one day for I command his stance for the truth and I show up from time to time in New England. Just in case you get bored here is my email: strengthforthestranger@gmail.com

      ~ Despeville

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  18. Ray,

    Thanks right back at you....Glenn, I agree with RAY... please come back. Despeville thank you for sharing that sermon.

    Erin you write great articles, and I love this blog. thank you. Teresa

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  19. I unsubscribed from this comment string because I refuse to be led into foolish debates which accomplish nothing.
    Since there were people who asked about my doctrinal beliefs, I just posted a statement on my blog at:
    http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2013/02/my-statement-of-faith.html

    Also, since there is such a desire for people to know my defense of my stance on Calvinism, I will have an article written within the next couple of days, and you are more than welcome to review what I have to say there.

    I find it amusing when I look at the above string how many times I am addressed after I stated I would no longer be following. I only came back to post this comment. I am still not subscribed and will not be seeing future comments.

    Oh, and for clarification - I did not turn my tail and run (another typical attack). And I didn't say I would stop following this blog, rather I said I was unsubscribing from THIS comment string - i.e. this article. Erin has a good blog to follow (I just tiptoe through the TULIPs :oD )

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    1. "I find it amusing when I look at the above string how many times I am addressed after I stated I would no longer be following. I only came back to post this comment. I am still not subscribed and will not be seeing future comments."

      What is more amusing is how you do not follow this thread yet you still came back which would reasonably qualify as following it. Even more amusingly, while having no time to spare you still had a time to post another non answer and evading rhetorical post Glenn... If we are in error and falsehood which is what you stated why you do not bother to correct us and do us a favor but repeatedly refusing to do it and now saying something about some forthcoming article you will post somewhere sometime... :o)

      Why not now and why not answer to simple questions you have been asked? Wouldn't that be easier and to the point given how little time to spare you have on these matters? Please do tell us why Charles Haddon Spurgeon and us are in falsehood and in need of truth and why him and us are almost as bad as Romanists are which is what you started with in this thread. Save yourself time and our anticipation and just answer here... Do you need more time to prepare? BTW I also do not subscribe here to this thread... Would that mean that I also do not follow by your definition? :0)

      ~ Despeville (almost as bad as the pope)

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  20. Glenn,


    You still turn your tail and run cause will not ever anwer no one questions....how rude. Teresa

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  21. Glenn we did address you after you said you would no longer be reading this string and guess what? YOU READ THIS STRING. If a Calvinist did that would they be a liar? I'm just goofing. So I just read your faith statement and I will ask again Who is the first cause of anyone's Salvation? Because your statement below is very wishy washy. It totally leads one to believe man makes the first move and is the first cause. So is that your answer? Man is the first cause of his own salvation? I'm so confused. I need clarity Please clear this up for me once and for all because I am pretty sure God says he is not a God of confusion and I have been swimming in it since we met. Thanks

    Redemption is wholly by the blood of Christ, and salvation from the eternal result of sin is possible only when we repent and personally place our faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement on our behalf. Salvation is by grace, through faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any works that we can do. (John 3:16-18; Rom. 5:18-19; Rom. 8:1-4; Rom. 10:9-10; Gal. 2:15-16; Eph. 2:8-9)

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    1. RAY

      Thank you because I thought the same thing, (wishy washy) that is why I said from the statement of faith from the assembly he attends follow "some" points of tulip.

      Glenn,

      Take calvinism out of the picture. I do not want to debate calvinsim...I would you to show us why tulip is not in the bible without you twisting it to fit your belief.

      Glenn, you do believe in free will, do you not? Teresa

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    2. Just not sure how a dead man can make a decision for Christ when he is dead. Teresa

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    3. @Tersea,

      Not according to pelagians and semi-pelagians. According to them sinful men is more or less "sick" and able to crawl to the truth. And no "pelagian" nor "semi-pelagian" IS NOT A NAME CALLING. Those are theological terms used to describe worldviews and certain types of theology, a corrupt types if I may add.

      More for those who wish to know:

      http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/search/label/Semi-Pelagianism

      ~ Despeville

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    4. I know....I have studies pelagianism and semi-pelagianism. Actually, what I should have said was... how can a man who is dead in sin and totally depraved make a decision for Christ when he is dead. Salvation for any of us is a supernatural work of God that only God can do. Thanks Despeville.

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    5. @Teresa

      Yes, it is all from God and by God for the glory of God. Dead sinners have nothing to offer nor are they able to. Unfortunately, massive majority of a visible church is completely planted in semi-pelagian heresy without realization where this came from and how vastly different it from the Biblical Faith.

      ~ Despeville (almost as bad as the pope...)

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    6. Amen!!!!!! teresa

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  22. I’m respectfully and kindly piping in here, to say that if I were in the place of Glenn, I would also avoid this conversation.

    I think everyone here has good motives and a passion about the subject. It just that I’ve been on the receiving end myself (on the topic of Creation) of what comes across as relentless badgering and high emotions, probably not intended as such at all, but nevertheless it comes across that way on a blog to the person it’s directed at. It’s painful, disconcerting and extinguishes any interest in continuing the conversation.

    If someone doesn’t want to discuss or debate details at the moment on a theological topic, let’s respect that person and leave them alone. After all, the 90 second video clip does not go into details either, it’s just a thought provoker, and Glenn was doing the same in kind. In fact, Glenn has an interesting blog that I read, and he may address his perspective later on his own turf.

    Let’s give our brothers and sisters in Christ the freedom to address differences in viewpoint in their own way and time. Thanks for listening, Carol

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    1. Carol the last thing I would have called our behavior is highly emotional and relentless badgering. I made jokes attempting to keep it light and never called Glenn a name other than Gary by mistake. Glenn made the following comment which started this entire string and was then unable or unwilling at any time to back up his statement/beliefs.

      Of course, there are no Calvinists in heaven either. They will finally learn the truth.

      Glenn is allowed to be wrong but he must defend his attacks/statements or he must not make them. Please don't forget had he answered the first simple question Who is the first cause of salvation? He would never have heard so much from so many people. I think he believes he saved himself and he is sticking to that point even though he cannot make a case from the Bible. If he could he would. That's scary to me and I am concerned for Glenn. Maybe you could read it all again and see no one was mean to Glenn. He was a little nasty to us but since we are right our feelings weren't hurt (just kidding)

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    2. @ Anonymous,

      "If someone doesn’t want to discuss or debate details at the moment on a theological topic, let’s respect that person and leave them alone."

      Anytime someone throws around accusations of error and falsehood that someone should be ready and more than willing to substantiate those accusations, especially when asked for this substance and repeatedly and by many people. This is a widely understood principle in the world of unbelievers is it not so much so to be understood and expected and promoted in the the body of believers?

      ~ Despeville

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  23. Free willers believe that dead in our sin really means sick in our sin. Like the fibbing sniffles but liars get cast into the lake of fire right? Maybe the lake of fire is really a sauna. Hey I believe it so it must be true. The whole world is heading for a day at the spa.

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  24. Erin,

    If you choose to not post this I will understand but I must post one more time.

    @Glenn,

    If you never had any intention of debating Calvinism or sparking a debate about Calvinism, which you did from your very first comment....Why? You sparked these series of comments and then you split, not very mature and this is not meant to be an insult.

    I have seen your comments posted on other christian blogs...through out the blog sphere and I use to respect you. I have been to your blog before all this. In the future I will have a hard time trusting anything you say because of your display here. Forgiveness is granted but trust is earned.

    It is not what you have said but lack there of and your not answering our questions.

    This will be my last comment to you concerning this matter...unless you answer our questions...

    Erin thank you.........Teresa

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  25. Just want to point this out….if someone, or anyone of us, makes a few comments on a blog…and others disagree with us… does it follow that we’re absolutely morally bound and obligated to answer every single question we’re peppered with to the satisfaction of everyone else? Especially on difficult and sensitive topics like Calvinism or Creationism etc.? I hope that commenting on a blog doesn’t imply that kind of social burden!

    Look, if a good friend wants to back out of a controversial subject and shelve it for another conversation… do we continue on in greater intensity and demand answers, or tell them we won’t respect them anymore, or tell them we’re scared for them? LOL. No, I think we would want to be gracious and move on to a mutually agreeable topic for the time being. Let's put ourselves in their place and be thoughtful. Carol

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    1. Carol yes if you make a claim that someone is wrong you need to back it up. If Glenn said he prefers wine over grape juice for communion and I asked why Well he could just walk away from that and no one would have an issue BUT he said Calvinists did not know the truth. Right now Glenn needs to either back up what he said or apologize and then walk away. No one here was mean to him and your friend analogy does not apply as I had never met Glenn until he made his comment. I thought we had all been in agreement that Glenn ran away Does that count? Carol I cannot put myself in Glenn's place because I would never toss out a comment without some Biblical back up to my position. BTW blogs would cease to exist if they were about mutually agreeable topics. Erin's whole website is about the truth and there is only one truth. Glenn said Calvinists don't know the truth but then won't tell us what it is. If you wish to be kind why not write to Glenn and ask him why he won't tell us the truth? Could anything be meaner than to know a blind man is walking off a cliff and just watch it happen? isn't that what Glenn is doing?

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  26. Carol,

    Glenn sparked these comments with his very first comment...I ask him what he mean't by his comment and he told me. I thank him and said nothing. As time went on, it started heating up.

    The point is out of mutal consideration and repect to us he could have answered Ray's question which was, who is the first cause of our salvation? No answer.

    So, has this gone to far, probably. We have been lots more gracious with him up to this point, than he has been with us.

    We put ourselves out there and he took off, very frustrating. I am not trying to change his mind but he could at least be honest and answer us.

    At this point I do not respect that him that he sparked this and split. Teresa

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  27. I posted my last comment in a hurry. Sorry, made some mistakes and not easy to understand.

    What I meant to say is.. at this point, I do not respect the fact that he sparked this and split, that is all.

    Perhaps I have been to harsh at times and for that I will ask for forgiveness from Glenn.

    As Ray said we are swimming in a pool of confusion or something like that. Teresa

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  28. Glenn did address the question on his blog. Thats a goog thing

    Ray Johnson said...
    Hi Glenn I have a question. This part of your faith statement (below) reads as if you saved yourself. Were you the first cause of your salvation or was God?

    Redemption is wholly by the blood of Christ, and salvation from the eternal result of sin is possible only when we repent and personally place our faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement on our behalf. Salvation is by grace, through faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any works that we can do. (John 3:16-18; Rom. 5:18-19; Rom. 8:1-4; Rom. 10:9-10; Gal. 2:15-16; Eph. 2:8-9)

    February 26, 2013 at 4:57 PM

    Glenn E. Chatfield said...
    Ray,
    A person accepting a gift does not give the gift to himself.

    If a person is drowning and someone throws him a life preserver, taking what was thrown does not make the person taking it responsible for saving himself.

    Show me from Scripture where a person is saved without repentance (which is not a work) or by placing their faith in Christ (faith is not a work, and faith is contrasted with works throughout Scripture).

    That's a problem with Calvinism, as well as Lutheranism (I attended a Lutheran church for 8 years, and my wife was raised in the LCMS) - they claim that exercising one's faith is a work.

    February 26, 2013 at 5:19 PM
    Ray Johnson said...
    Glenn thanks for the answer. I will comment and you can then stop if you want and we have no issues. Yes Christians do accept the gift of salvation but only after God causes them to be born again so they can believe. He give us the faith we use to believe. It all happens simultaneously. You cannot be a born again unbeliever and you cannot be a believer who is not born again. Right? I agree everyone that is born again reacts the same way They repent and trust in what now they are able to understand is real Jesus. None of them knew he was real until God caused them to know it. Do you believe that everyone knows Heaven and hell are real and they willingly knowingly choose hell? If only some have the ability to believe where does it (faith) come from?
    Your drowning analogy doesn't work because the person drowning knows he is drowning and wants to be saved. The Bible says we are dead at the bottom of the ocean not treading water to stay afloat looking to be saved. There are no Bible verses to make you think you were treading water when you were unregenerate. There are lots that say we were dead, blind, deaf, hostile, unable, can't understand, unwilling etc etc etc. It is wrong to teach this as the truth because it is nothing more than a man made doctrine. Why not just say Whoever believes will be saved? Instead you dance around the issue and cause confusion. The Gospel is a hideous thing to the unbeliever and you, me or the unbeliever can never make it attractive to them Only God can do that. Now please think of your drowning analogy as you read these verses. It does not fit at all
    1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    When Peter wrote this and it was read in Church absolutely no one would have come up with your drowning analogy or anything else that is man centered. The ones who believed would have rejoiced in the kindness of God and the ones who didn't would have ignored it and no one would have attempted to water it down to keep them around.

    Look it is great that you take the time to blog and put the Word out there but you are leaving yourself open to attacks that you can't defend and that does more harm than good. It's ok if people don't like you because of Jesus. They hated him first. I hope you will listen to some of the No Compromise Radio shows. Please let me know what you think

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    1. Ray you are biblically correct in sticking with Scripture--we are DEAD in our sins-Col.2:13, Eph. 2:1.. This is one verse that many just don't apply.. The analogy about being dead at the bottom of the ocean is what I would say as well.

      They always make the analogy based on a false premise-i.e.-(the argument that we are drowning) when the bible clearly says we are DEAD

      What this does is remove THE FEAR OF GOD!..

      If man can choose then well, "he can just choose anytime he feels like it right?

      But if we are DEAD then man cannot choose and this places the fear of God FIRST! This shows man that you are at God's utter and complete mercy. This is what causes man to cry out to God in true repentance

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    2. Well said LINDA

      Repentance must be granted by the father anyway, Act 11:18 Act 5:31. It appears by these scriptures that repentance is something God gives and it is only by his grace, that we even get it.

      Biblical repentance " change of mind" It is not just turning from our sins but changing our minds about who Jesus Christ and turning to God... Acts 3:19 Acts 26:20.

      How can we put our faith in Jesus Christ unless we have had a change of mind about who Jeusus really is or how can we put our trust in God, if we do not fear him, as Linda said.

      How can we repent, if we do not know who Jesus Christ is and what he has done for us. How can we know we need a Savior, if we do not even know that we are totally depraved (dead) and in desperate need of a savior. Romans 3: 10, 11, 12, no one seeks after God.

      How can we come unless God draws us unto himself John 6:44 and then it must be granted by the father John 6:65

      How can we come unless God open our hearts to receive the truth anyway, our eyes to see and our ears to hear. Teresa















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    3. Amen Teresa. If we stop trying to defend the "Arminian Calvinism" argument and just use God's word-Sola Scriptura as our basis, then we know that God is the first cause- He is Sovereign LORD. Jesus even said -"You did not choose me but I chose you"-In fact in Romans 9 why does Paul say before the twins were born (before) they didn't do anything good or bad—why does Paul put that little detail in there if man has free will? He puts the detail in there to emphasize the fact that it was God’s choice—HIS CHOICE and not man’s. –according to HIS CHOICE-Again the Bible emphatically teaches that it is GOD’s choice according to HIS mercy and grace.

      It is solely on God’s MERCY-it is God’s will-- Phil 2:13 “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Eph 1:9 “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: If we say man had a choice in choosing God(free will) then everything crumbles and is tainted. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10. Where did man have free will in that verse? He doesn't. He cannot. For even every decision man makes is tainted with sin. Do we seriously think that God will accept our tainted decision for HIM? We don't have it because we are Rotten to the very core-heart of our being...

      If it were us choosing Jesus (making a decision)then whenever we sin or disown him like Peter did thrice times, then we'd live in fear of losing our salvation. But the most beautiful TRUTH to know that frees Christians up from the fear of ever losing salvation is knowing that God chose us before he even laid down the foundation of the world.
      God is all knowing and he does whatever pleases HIM-If man has "free will" then we have 2 conflicting wills here and God is no longer Sovereign and he no longer does whatever pleases him.

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    4. I wished I could write as elequently as you. Well said Linda.

      I like your style my sister in Christ. Ray your being really quiet. LOL

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    5. Sorry Glenn used his free will to kidnap me and take away my free will so I would shut up. (just kidding) I had work stuff to attend to. Here is a thought on free will. No one would argue that Christians are set aside, different from the world right? Well every other religion in the world teaches man has free will. Every other religion is a false religion of works other than Biblical Christianity. We do something to please God and he accepts us based on our efforts. The thing that sets Biblical Christianity apart is the fact that we cannot get saved by our own will. Salvation is because Jesus used his free will and lived a perfect life and paid for the sins of all who believe. It is his finished work that we get credited with. His work was not to make a path that we could choose. His work paid our sin debt in full once for all time. If we teach anything else we are taking credit away for Jesus and applying it to ourselves. I am pretty sure when Glenn gets to Heaven he is not going to run up to Jesus and slap him a high five and yell WE did it.
      Another thought on free will. Why don't we drink Liquid Plumbr? We don’t drink it because we actually believe the label that was written by some man(lawyer) and it says we will die but how do we know? I have never tried it and I don't know anyone who has. What if it is actually the tastiest beverage ever? We have no way to know but we still won't try it because we believe the label. The Bible says no one can come unless God calls them but most people teach just ask Jesus in your heart and you'll be saved. The Bible doesn't say that anywhere. It says just the opposite but people like Glenn still teach what's not there. Glenn won’t drink Liquid Plumbr (which is a good thing I think) but he also won't teach what the Bible teaches. So what does that really mean?

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    6. Ray,

      I'm glad your free will brought you back and I am glad you do did shut up. LOL

      I can tell you what it really means....after reading his article I am not a calvinist....I got my anwer really quick....He is Arminian who believes you can not loose your salvation, so therefore he is 4 point arminian and 1 point calvinist...at least he got one right.

      He may say that God is the first cause for our salvation but after reading his article he believes it depends on our choice/ free will or our rejection of Christ.

      Of course, believer's have 100 percent responsibility but when it come to our salvation it has nothing to do with us.

      Amen Ray...........Teresa

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  29. Ray,

    Our questions are finally answered. Go read on glenn's blog "I am not a Calvinist" and your questions will be answered, my were. Teresa

    It has been nice meeting you Ray...hope to see and read your comments again. i have enjoyed your wisdom and your comments.


    Erin, Hope we did not wear you out to much. God's speed. Teresa

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  30. some of the "CANONS of the Council of Orange(529 AD)"

    CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

    CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

    CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).


    CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

    CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers"

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  31. Linda how dare you use Scripture to make a point You are not fighting fair

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  32. I must respectfully state that I'm super surprised by this comment thread- and a little discouraged. Glenn made it clear that he did not want to engage in further discussion, but still provided a doctrinal statement. He also went as far as providing information on his blog about his beliefs. It is entirely possible that I am misunderstanding Glenn's intentions, but I don't think his motive was to stir the pot so much as pointing out that in heaven, identifying with Arminianism won't matter...or Calvinism either.

    I'm not suggesting that these issues aren't important. They are. But come on, leave the guy alone if he doesn't want to answer your questions.

    And as usual, I'm late to the party.

    Allison

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  33. Allison,

    yes, you are late, and things have died down but since you brought it up again, I will bite.

    Glenn, whether he is Arminian or not is not the point. He most certainly did start this whole string of comments because of his first comment and then rudely left. If he had no intentions of starting a debate then just maybe it would have been wise for him to say nothing.

    Yes, he did provide on his blog a statement of faith which only proved that he believes that man has a free will and it showed us how Glenn does not rightly divide the Word of God. He in my opinion is a very rude man who is selfish and one sided. Ray tried to talk to him but Glenn was very rude to Ray. Erin being the lady that she is does post Glenn's comments but Glenn would not give Ray the same respect and post his. Glenn did post a few of Ray's comments but was rude in the process.

    We, by far was more gracious to Glenn, than he ever was to us. This is a reform or calvinist blog and Glenn knows that, but he still sparked these strings of comments by his first response and left. This debate has been going on for years and it will until the LORD comes, I sure. I care more about God's word and rightly dividing the Word of truth and contending for the faith, than dabating over who is right or wrong. This is about God's Word Sola Scriptura being our final authority and our final truth and making sure we are not mishandling God's Word.

    Erin thanks again, Teresa

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  34. None of us has arrived. Leave people with their faults, failures, shortcomings, good ways and bad in the Lord's hands and love one another. Pr.10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs." Let us pray for one another and seek to treat others (regardless) of how they might treat you back "to consider them better than ourselves-Philippians chapter 2. It takes time --sometimes a long time for us to understand some truths and in God's timing HE is the only one who can approach us just right and reveal the truth to us like no one can. --"The words of a man's mouth are deep waters, but the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook."-Pr.18:4.

    Just think of how patient the Lord Jesus is with us? I've gone around the mountain(sh'ell be comin' around the mountain when she comes) and wandered in the desert quite a few times with my own stubborn ways. But God is always so faithful and gracious and his patience wimme melts my heart to be more patient with others.

    pray as Paul prayed for the Ephesians for one another:

    18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."-Eph.1:18-23

    Sincerely in Christ, Linda

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