01 January 2013

Jesus Culture and Judah Smith to Join Piper, Moore, Chan and Others at Giglio's Passion 2013

A new year means a fresh batch of conferences. And a fresh batch of conferences means a whole new crop of questionable decisions being made by the leaders and organizers of those gatherings.

To start off the 2013 conference season is Louie Giglio's Passion 2013. Held at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, it will run from 1–4 January. Giglio aims this gathering specifically at young people, and according to the event's website, last year saw "more than 40,000 students and leaders from around the world" at the US event. Today The Christian Post reports that 60,000 students are scheduled to attend this week's event.


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Passion targets the younger generation with such high-profile names as Beth Moore, John Piper, Francis Chan, rapper Lecrae and this year, pastor Judah Smith of The City Church in Seattle and popular Christian band, Jesus Culture.

Who Is Judah Smith?

Judah Smith has been profiled briefly here before when, in May of this year, Smith invited Word Faith teacher Brian Houston of Hillsong Church (who, incidentally, just preached weekend services at Rick Warren's Saddleback Church) to preach at The City Church. Oddly enough, New Calvinist pastor Mark Driscoll was excited about the invitation, even encouraging his Twitter followers to attend.

Judah Smith co-pastors his church with his wife, Chelsea, making the Reformed Driscoll's endorsement even more perplexing. The presence of a pastrix at The City Church ought not surprise, though, when it is considered that this church was founded by Judah's parents, pastor Wendell and pastrix Gini Smith:
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The reader will note that, in the screenshot above, it states that Wendell and Gini Smith originally served under Dick Iverson at Bible Temple in Portland. According to C. Peter Wagner's book Apostles Today: Biblical Government for Biblical Power, Iverson was the "founder of one of America's foremost apostolic networks, Ministers Fellowship International, out of Portland, Oregon." So it sounds as though The City Church has some rather colorful roots.

Who Is Jesus Culture?

Speaking of colorful, this leads to the concerning inclusion by Louie Giglio of the "Christian" music group, Jesus Culture. The group's website tells us that it was spawned out of the youth group at Bill Johnson's Bethel Church in Redding, California. For those who are unfamiliar with Johnson and Bethel, the following video shares some of the "signs and wonders" shenanigans that take place there, and also demonstrates some classic Bill Johnson Scripture-twisting:



Now, one could camp for quite awhile on some of the statements made by Johnson in that video, but since Johnson is not under discussion here, we'll move on. The point is, of course, that this is the church that birthed the Jesus Culture phenomenon.

The entirety of Jesus Culture's "About Us" page warrants a close examination, and will aid in understanding why Christians should be concerned that this band is being mainstreamed by men like Louie Giglio:

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The choice of words in the paragraphs above is curiously alarming. The language surrounding a "new breed of revivalists" emerging is of particular interest, as such vocabulary is prominent within the  New Apostolic Reformation movement.

Note also that the group claims direct revelation and instruction from the Lord Himself.


The members of Jesus Culture claim that the Lord spoke to them, revealing the characteristics of their movement (which noticeably does not include repentance or sanctification, only love and supernatural experience), commissioning them to "mobilize this new breed," and in so doing issued a mandate to Jesus Culture that cannot be ignored. Taking this to its logical conclusion, then, to question the actions or words of Jesus Culture and its members is to question God Himself.

Examination of this website further reveals that the goal of this group is to lead people into an experience or an "encounter" with God. It seems that truth may be cast aside in favor of temporary and potentially deceiving experiences.

The Music of Jesus Culture

It behooves us, then, to see just how it is that the music of Jesus Culture may lull the professing Christian teenager into a so-called "encounter" with God. Below you will witness the group leading the crowd in a repetitive mantra, followed by some singing and what appears to be tongues-speaking. The clip will close with band member Kim Walker-Smith breaking into spontaneous prayer and declaration.



The repetition of the mantra "Jesus" at the beginning of the clip, while appearing to be spiritual, actually potentially could lead a person into an altered state of consciousness. Contemplative prayer, which is little more than a "Christianized" version of Eastern meditation, often encourages such a practice, as one seeks to journey inward to discover the "divine spark" within oneself. Yet, Scripture nowhere teaches this type of praise or prayer, but rather condemns the practices of pagan religions.

Also of note in the clip above is the apparent spontaneous breakout into tongues at approximately 2:30, following the singing of the line, "Heaven beckons to me." The fact that these were nothing more than gibberish and were not a known language, as per the biblical definition of 'tongues,' ought to cause concern as well.

In watching and listening to Jesus Culture, it does not take long to realize that the focus of their music and teaching is all about an experience of "God's love." Yet, without acknowledging the righteous wrath of God, His love can never fully be understood or appreciated. Unfortunately, a warm-fuzzy feeling up and down one's spine does not a true Christian make.

The "Teaching" of Jesus Culture

Jesus Culture does more than simply play music, however. It seems that, at times, various members of the group also may preach or teach. Below is Jesus Culture member Kim Walker-Smith preaching to a large crowd at the Awakening 2011 event, and offering a rather detailed account of her own personal encounter with "Jesus." This video is a bit lengthy, but the reader is urged to watch it in its entirety.



(Note: If the above video is not available, please visit this link and watch for approximately 15 minutes).

Kim Walker-Smith claims that she spoke with Jesus, that He cuddled her, and that she saw God the Father. And while she acknowledges that such visions are not regular occurrences, she nevertheless indicates that she's had multiple encounters with Him. One wonders how many people sitting amongst that large crowd left disappointed that night that they had not "encountered" Jesus as Kim Walker-Smith claimed that she had. Walker-Smith's recollection of the vision is natural, and seems to presume that everyone should experience such a thing. Yet, when face to face with God Almighty, how did Isaiah react?
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" (Isaiah 6:1–5)
And Ezekiel?
And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face...(Ezekiel 1:26–28)
Moses, who we are told spoke to the Lord as a man speaks to a friend (Exodus 33:11), was not even allowed to see Him in all of His glory!
Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:18–23)
Not one of these men, after a brief moment of awestruck fear, "fell into Jesus' arms" as Walker-Smith claims that she did. Not one describes God the Father running around deliriously and laughing while Isaiah or Ezekiel danced around in a music box. So to Kim Walker-Smith's claims above that she has spoken personally with Jesus Christ and God the Father, I would like to offer this challenge: Prove it. And while you're at it, disprove this: God just spoke to me and told me that you are lying, Kim Walker-Smith. Don't believe me? Well, who is to say that your experience was real and mine was not?

Christian, herein lies the grave danger of such claims of personal revelation and visitations from God. They cannot be proven and they are not Scriptural. If they are to be found in Scripture, they appear to be more indicative of the deceptive angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14–15) than anything else.

Parents, if your teenager is attending Passion 2013 this week, this is the type of so-called Christian leaders to whom they are being exposed. This is the type of music that will bombard their eardrums during these four days. If your impressionable teen is wandering in the crowd of Passion 2013, it is my prayer that you will pray mightily for his or her protection.

What Happened at Passion 2012?

As a reminder, last year's Passion Conference saw the featured speakers lead the humongous crowd in a troubling display of "Lectio Divina-lite." In the post, "Biblical Silence vs. Mystical Silence and What Really Went On at Passion 2012?" the topics of contemplative prayer and lectio divina were discussed more thoroughly. The following videos of Session 5 of the Passion 2012 conference also were shared in that article.

Here is popular New Calvinist preacher John Piper:


Here we see the SBC's favorite female Bible teacher, Beth Moore:


And here is Passion founder Louie Giglio closing this session:


Of special note are the words spoken by Giglio at the close of this exercise:
How many of you heard the voice of God speak specifically, clearly, directly, and personally, to you? Can you just put a hand up? I’d like you to share it. Can you put a hand up for a minute? 
Just want you to look around; that’s people saying, “God Almighty (pause) the Maker of heaven (pause) the one Who’s sitting on the only throne (pause) that’s not under threat (long pause, audience cheers)—He spoke to me. He spoke to me.” 
“God spoke to me.” (long pause) Don’t let the voice of the darkness, tell you that you are not (pause) worth (pause) that God would not speak to you. (pause) Don’t let him tell you, you don’t matter. (pause) God spoke to you.
To be sure, the public reading of Scripture is an important practice. The epistles especially deliver a greater impact when read aloud as originally intended. Reflection upon the text is equally important for the Christian. It is not with these two practices that the concerns lie, however. Giglio's above statements get to the crux of the concern—this seemingly was about listening for the voice of God in the silence, not in the Scripture. How many in that enormous crowd felt small, perhaps cheated, perhaps dismayed, because they did not hear the voice of God in the silence as Giglio implied that they should?

As was asked in last year's reporting of this event: When did Protestant leaders begin to teach that we need the Bible "plus" anything? God has spoken. He has graciously, clearly, and perfectly spoken in His Word. We have no need to be still and wait for His audible voice outside of Scripture. He has not stuttered. He has not stammered. He has not whispered. If you want to hear from God Almighty, open your Bible and read.

Until Passion 2013 commences, there is no way to know if a similar exercise will be practiced again. A live stream of the event will be provided, and those who are concerned may want to take the time to watch some of the sessions.

Conclusion

It is important to note that this article is not attempting to throw anyone under the guilt-by-association bus. No one is saying that, because one of these individuals will be sharing the stage with another that they necessarily endorse that other person's ministry. Of course, that does not speak to the wisdom of certain speakers choosing to participate in this event. What must be acknowledged, however, is that simply by extending an invitation to these individuals, Passion founder Louie Giglio is issuing an apparent endorsement of each one's ministry. For those who maintain that Giglio is a conservative and trusted teacher, this poses a rather complicated problem.

Evangelicalism appears to be taking broader strides toward the wide road of destruction. Compromise is rampant as numbers take priority over fidelity to Scripture. These are not small issues, dear Christian. What we are witnessing is the mainstreaming of movements that once existed only on the fringe of the "Christian" community, such as Word Faith and dangerous, deceptive "charismatic chaos." In the face of the visible church's compromise, the true Christian must stand on God's Word alone. To ground oneself upon anything else is to guarantee a certain, perhaps eternal, collapse.

Further Reading
Louie Giglio to Join Word Faith Lineup at 2012 Hillsong Conference
Beth Moore Preaches Sunday Service at Louie Giglio's Passion City Church (Christian Research Network)
Beth Moore and John Piper Set for Passion 2013 with Louie Giglio (Apprising Ministries)

56 comments:

  1. Erin, thank you so much for the research and information about the danger of Jesus Culture. I've been telling my friends for over a year to watch out for this group.

    It is amazing how many Christians get angry when I bring up the flawed teaching behind this group. I found myself in a Facebook war of words with a whole group of folks from one comment I posted last year. I don't know if people are defensive because they love the group so much, or if they don't want to admit they've been duped by these false teachers.

    It's going to take leaders like yourself to stand up and point to the fallacies people like Jesus Culture's leaders promotes. This is so dangerous, yet people blindly follow them.

    I worry that this is the face of the future of Christianity - with their "fire tunnels" and "calling down" fire to annoint people.

    It truly is sad that more people don't see the danger behind the music.

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    1. Appreciate the encouragement, John, thank you.

      People will get angry when you touch their sacred cows. Reactions like that often cause me to wonder over the influence these people have. A godly, Christian person will be willing to listen to concerns presented from Scripture. But one who is trapped in deception will immediately go on the defensive.

      We've watched the visible church mainstream more and more goofiness. I do think that, ultimately, all of the wackiness will be accepted in one way or another. Those who question it or speak against it best be girded with the truth of God's Word, because the opposition will be mighty.

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    2. Why do these article's sound more and more like from people who are sour and bitter about their lack of encounters with God (Holy Spirit)? Almost sounds like my atheist friends. Yes, I get it that Scripture is all we need, but that doesn't mean God is not working in other ways to reach His children. Those with faith won't get rattled by how others claim their encounter with God was outside of scripture. Unless it does't check with scripture. Experience should never be above scripture, but scipture doesn't nullify experience.

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  2. So this woman claims to have seen God the Father; then God must be a liar because He state in Exodus 33:20, 'Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.'
    If people would read their bibles, this foolishness would be exposed for what it is and yet, it is part of God's judgment on those who refuse truth and believe garbage like this.

    Wonderful job in exposing this trash, may the Lord continue to bless your efforts.

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    1. Thank you for the encouragement, lyn. Great verse.

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    2. wow, talk about taking scripture out of context. no wonder this world looks at christians like a bu=nch of bumbling idiots, its people like you who do not have the christlikeness that I looked at and kept me from coming to Jesus. I definitely can do without you fools.

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  3. "..making the Reformed Driscoll's endorsement even more perplexing..."

    With all due respect EBenz and I am sure you do know this. Driscoll is as much "Reformed" as Benedict the XVI is...


    Despeville

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    1. Yeah, yeah. You know that and I know that, but try telling that to the YRR crowd. So long as he claims the label, I'll attribute it to him. It probably would be best done in quotation marks, though!

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  4. Thank you so much for your work to bring information about Jesus Culture to us. There are so many triggers in the language that, upon good study, mean more (or less) than they seem to on the surface. I learned a lot in reading about this group because of your precise analysis.

    I also noticed another buzz word that brings a devastating heresy and a potential for spiritual abuse, both of which are rampant in the church today. Number 1 in the About Us clickable photo says that participants will be "aligned under their covering" of spiritual mothers and fathers. I may be wrong, but most often, when a 'covering' is mentioned by groups with dicey doctrine, it often refers to the unbiblical movement continued by John Bevere and it's known as 'Covering Theology'.

    Bevere wrote a book called Under Cover: The Promise of Protection Under His Authority. This theology is a terrible thing to be drawn into. It crushes Christians.

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    1. Thanks for pointing out this additional "red flag" language, Elizabeth. I'm familiar with Bevere, but not overly familiar with this 'Covering Theology.' I'm going to look into it more - thanks for the tip!

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    2. You're welcome EBenz. I looked into it this past October and was astounded at what I found. Because there is nothing new under the sun, covering theology is actually Phariseeism at its worst, harkening back to the control the Pharisees had over the word and over the spiritual lives of their flock during the time of Jesus. We read in the Gospels about the grilling the blind man received for believing something the Pharisees didn't want the people to believe, and the fear the flock had in being thrown out of the synagogue (John 12:42, John 9:34, John 3:2).

      Covering Theology is actually the impetus for much of the spiritual abuse we see these days in the spiritual stranglehold abusive pastors have on their churches. The trouble is, many pastors who came up in the 70s adhere to this theology but they do not declare it openly, and it is only when the church door is hitting you in the back do you find out the number of tentacles this theology has managed to grow in your church right under your nose. (2 Peter 2:1)

      I hope you do look into it. I know you would do a good analysis.

      I found the essay from Blogos helpful
      http://www.blogos.org/keepwatch/under-cover-book.html

      and this website has quite a bit of information too. http://coveringandauthority.com/

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  5. "The City Church "History" section gives evidence Pastor Wendell Smith's mentoring relationship with the very New Age Dick Iverson and heretical Nazarene orientation. The "Dragon Slayer" New Generation is a reference to the Masonic vow to destroy Christianity and establish the Esoteric Church."

    "Pastor Wendell became well known for the 'Dragon Slayer' New Generation youth seminars held across America."

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    1. Great additional info, Linda, thank you!

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  6. Wow, as a college student who listens to Jesus Culture and plans on attending Passion (next year) this post has given me a lot to think about. I recently watched a small documentary [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_yiiXw8pM] focusing on the music and message of Jesus Culture, as well as the heresy continually coming out of Bethel. I have to say, I am very conflicted over this; the church that birthed Jesus Culture is teeming with heretical teachings, yet the music itself glorifies God and is devoid of any nonsense. I would not say I am a staunch fan, but I have been blessed by many of their songs. It is the same with Hillsong. As far as I know, their music has always been Christ exalting and-while not necessarily theologically rich-theologically sound. Yet no one needs to tell me that Brian Houston- along with his wife- are grossly heretical in their teachings. I am definitely wrestling with whether or not I should stop listening to them, and Hillsong, completely or just listen but with discernment. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.

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    1. Crystal, Jesus Culture music from what I can discern as a Christian has more in common to pagan mimicking or secular type rituals. If you do a comparison it certainly doesn't have much in common to Christian hymns.
      Although the Jesus Culture sings about Jesus I would gently like to point out that they have much more in common with secular music when it comes to the erotic, trance by repetition, chanting and brainwashing tactics.

      Take music in places like Africa that's used in their voodoo worship and dancing- The drums etc---- have you ever watched as the people in Africa are jumping up and down with the beat of the music? The same similar (forms) are being used when band member Kim Walker-Smith is jumping up and down. It's a form of hypnotism with people. Some of the words like her repetition of "Jesus" over and over is not biblical. If Jesus said not to babble with prayer, what makes it okay to babble with music??- Jesus has already told us not to babble like the pagans do- Matthew 6:7

      Eph 5:19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,,,"~

      Ask-are their songs actually making music (TO) the Lord or are they full of repetitions and subliminal suggestions into a person's sub-conscience to make people feel something such as "feel God" or "feel love" or feel better-Eroticism. At the beginning when she was singing so softly "Jesus" I have to admit that I felt a warmth all over my body. This warmth I felt is the same I used to feel before I was saved-eroticism. There's No doubt in my mind that this is sensual and not true worship. Christian music doesn't play upon ones emotions and flesh-(body) like this. it comes from a person's heart and mind that is completely engaged and guarded by the TRUTH of God's word and God's Holy Character. Joy and elation spring from a person who is worshiping the Lord
      music can involve evocation and transmutation of energy. Once it taps into the sources of magical energy it can succeed in surpassing a person's mind (thinking).

      "The (real) Presence of God is entirely different. When God moves He communes with (the spirit) of the believer: The body and soul are awake and fully alert; The spirit is softened; the will remains free but God draws (gently) into a conformity to His will. There is always beauty, harmony, holiness and grace when God makes His Presence manifest. Never does the Holy Spirit of the Lord bring about foolish, uncouth or unclean actions. He can fill a room with His Presence, but the spirit is affected never the senses and the body. The body may be overcome by the Presence of God but it is not the centre of a spiritual phenomenon. An emotion of love surely comes towards God, but never a sensual perversion. The emotional response in a Godly experience is secondary, holy, uplifting and pure. The believer is made aware of God by an enlightening in the spirit, very seldom by an appearance which the senses, such as the eyes, the nose or the ears, apprehend. (Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 1;2-8)."~quote from Wendy

      sincerely

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    2. Dear Crystal, Linda is exactly correct!

      I am a musician, a harpist. I can attest to the intense emotional power of music, for good or ill.

      Pagan religious music is designed to work the same way our contemporary "Christian" music is performed. Rather, vice versa because pagan religious music is historic and hasn't changed. There's a long tradition of simple repetitive themes with a strong, frenetic drum beat, chanting, swaying, swirling, loud volumes.

      You can research any culture's music: tribal, Japanese, Latin, etc. The design is always the same. Even ancient Roman Catholic monastic chants.

      On the other hand, research the great, historic hymns from classical composers: Handel, Bach, Praetorious, Luther and more.

      Google the "cyber hymnal" online for the content. Compare and see which is true authentic Christian worship music.

      Begin by studying G.F. Handel's "Messiah" - and notice the words, too.

      In all of human history, the Lord has always put the TRUE worship model out there along with the false.

      Use God's Word to measure what is accurate.

      Never rely on the emotions first.

      After true TRUTH comes the emotions. Emotions are always to be governed by TRUTH - written in God's Word.

      Blessings,

      Robin

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    3. Crystal,

      I want to thank you for graciously sharing your concerns here. I can't tell you how encouraged I was to see a young person who is willing and seeking to examine these things in light of Scripture, even if that means giving up something (the music of Jesus Culture and Hillsong) that you enjoy.

      I can add little to what Linda and Robin have said. I, too, would urge you to look at the doctrinal content of the hymns of old and to compare with today's praise choruses. The music may make us feel good and upbeat and happy, but what are you taking away from it? What truth have you learned? Are you singing to God, or are you singing about yourself? If you look at many of these lyrics of these new songs, you'll find that it is often the latter. I do believe there is great danger in this type of music, particularly in the repetitive chanting, and the soft, low humming music that often accompanies it. It is designed to lead people into a trance, where one is no longer in control - a very dangerous place for a Christian to be!

      Further, you understand the heretical nature of the teachings of the churches that these two bands come out of. Rest assured that the band members also adhere to those same teachings (as was demonstrated above by Kim Walker-Smith). Essentially, then, you are worshiping the Lord while being led by those who propagate false teaching. Perish the thought! Just as I would never sing along with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, no matter how beautiful a sound they may be making, so too can I never allow myself to be led in worship by someone who denies fundamental truths of Christianity, and in fact teaches doctrine contrary to the Word.

      I truly love Robin's suggestion to "begin by studying Handel's Messiah" and to notice the words. Trust me, few songs will bless you more!

      Thank you again for reading and for commenting. You will be in my prayers as you seek God's will in this dilemma.

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  8. There are pastors who are tender shepherds, who love the Lord and His little flock, and guard her with their lives. Protecting her from false doctrine, steadfastly refusing to be part and parcel of the spirit of the age, they humbly and selflessly serve with all the strength and courage God gives them. Bold as lions, tender as doves, they reflect their King as light in this fallen world.

    Somewhere, yes somewhere, they exist. Whoever and wherever they are, they won't be attending this conference, they're too busy ministering to their local body, and they certainly wouldn't share the pulpit with those who promulgate error, as such will be present here.

    Linda, your comments about "worship music" trance by repetition were insightful. Current church where I (try to) worship, lots of praise choruses with vain repetition. I can't stand it. Put up with it because the preaching is good. I don't participate in the music except singing hymns. I want my MIND engaged on TRUTH. That and I prefer to say intelligible and intelligent things to God. Like complete thoughts and honoring His attributes, for starters.

    -carolyn

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  9. Even the elite will be deceived..............God help us! I pray not only for the youth attending these conferences, but for the mainstream Christian teachers and songwriters who make Passion one of their primary creative efforts (Matt Redman, Chris Tomlin, Ed Nash etc.). May God lift the scales from their eyes, that they may behold what is real in Christ, take a stand, or flee.

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  10. I hate google; it makes me wind up at hate-blogs like this. If blog writers like yourself spent more time evangelizing, and less time slandering other Christians, we might have preached the gospel to the entire world already. Maybe Jesus Culture and Judah Smith have a few doctrinal errors, but I'm pretty sure they've done more good for the kingdom of God than this blog has.

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    1. Anonymous, "a few doctrinal errors" can send people to Hell believing a false gospel. But thanks for playing.

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    2. At least you admit they have some doctrinal errors. Maybe if you would think of their errors like a cup of water with a few drops of cyanide in it that will kill you, then you'd find that someone such as this blog warning you would actually be a Judgment in LOVE and not a judgment of slandering anyone. Then you'd be grateful that they saved you from drinking it.

      My friend learn the difference between someone slandering you and someone exposing false teachers and teachings.

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  11. I dont think there has ever been ONE single well know pastor who doesnt have some kind of blog like this screaming about them being a heretic. It's ridiculous. And the analysis at the Jesus culture lyrics is laughable. Man I cant believe some people are being decieved into thinking repeating praises to God is wrong or demonic. "Oh my gosh! you said Jesus more than one time in a row this must be some kind of pagan ritual worhsip". Maybe you guys should rebuke the searaphim around God in heaven who REPEAT “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” ALL DAY EVERYDAY since according to your theology that would be paganistic or demonic.

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    1. First of all friend we're not Seraphim.. Last time I looked I did not have 6 wings covered with eyes all over inside and out. These Seraphim are specifically made for this very purpose --NOT US....

      Second of all- Either Jesus is right or you're right.. you have taken an example to support your argument completely out of context and pitted it against what Jesus said about babbling making him out to be a liar--this proves that you are in error.

      thirdly,,You fail to understand the God whom they pretend to worship is the same God who consumed Nadab and Abihu (Num. 26:61) for offering strange fire, worship not ordained by God to Him in their own “novel way.” God changes not (Mal. 3:6) and He still rejects profane worship today. Sincerely friend, I'd read Malachi and see if you still find it laughable to worship God any old way you want

      Lastly, A Greek expert I've read about seems to be a bit irritated to hear 'worship' used for singing instead of the act of prostration.

      and this is not verbatum---"All this band is doing are things that stir up artificial passions. Do we really need music and lots of rhythms just to get our emotions worked up in order to Worship the Lord? This is really a form of false worship. It's really no better than Idolatry."

      "Our passions should not need to be artificially stimulated and stirred up by spiritual cheerleaders and stadium chants. We shouldn't have to be worked into an emotional state by melodrama and musical manipulation. You know,,, if we can get pumped up to a fever pitch by a musician rather than by the truth of the biblical message (God's word), then whatever we're feeling isn't a legitimate passion in the first place. By the way the passions that are stirred by a clear vision of God's glory aren't necessarily warm and comforting. It's not always a good feeling. In fact it's much more likely that the first time someone catches a glimpse of God's glory the result will be intense fear. Because the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom."-end quote from Phil Johnson

      AS Spurgeon put it~"Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope."

      Sincerely in Christ, Linda

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  12. "He has graciously, clearly, and perfectly spoken in His Word. We have no need to be still and wait for His audible voice outside of Scripture. He has not stuttered. He has not stammered. He has not whispered. If you want to hear from God Almighty, open your Bible and read."



    So if God only talks to His people through the bible what did He do before the bible was written? Gen 3:9-10 "But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?' He answered, 'I HEARD YOU in the garden, and i was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'" And how did the bible get written by people like Moses, John, and Paul if God did not speak to them? Do you think that after God has talked to the human race for years that he would just decide to stop talking now that the Bible was written? You should maybe look at your own doctrine before you start taking it upon yourself to point out doctrines that you believe to be wrong. Look up Luke 6:41-42.

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    1. Check out Hebrews 1:1,2. Yes, God spoke through men in order to achieve His purposes but He has spoken to us once and for all through His written word and revelation of Himself. I believe it's dangerous to compare ourselves to Moses or Paul in thinking that God is going to audibly speak to us or communicate through some kind of vision. Although I do think that he speaks to our hearts and minds through the Spirit in the sense that He convicts us and guides us to further mold us into the image of His son.

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  13. Stumbled across this blog looking for some alternative thoughts about the Passion Conferences. I've been to three of them. Your points are well taken and I can understand in some instances where some things may be theologically in error. I appreciate you drawing these to my attention.
    I just can't go there with you on some of your points. My goal, like yours, is to be on point Biblically. I doubt any of us are 100 percent if we got right down to it. While I can certainly see some troubling issues with some of the Jesus Culture language, I find it pretty hard to condemn the reading of God's word to the people. That's entirely Biblical and Scripture shows us the Word being read had a profound effect on the people when they heard it.
    So, to sum up, there are some things you have brought to my attention that I certainly need to watch carefully, but others seem to be trying to identify something that really isn't there. I understand you would strongly disagree and that's OK.
    Thanks for the forum.

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  14. It isn't "odd" that Driscoll was "encouraging". He is a wolf dress up in Reformed garb and never really left the Emergent camp.

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  15. I just want to ask you a few questions. Can you tell me a pastor or a speaker or band that, in your view, is theologically sound and preaches truth that can be verified by the Bible? If John Piper endorses heresy, who do you suggest does not? Shall I listen to Joel Osteen or TD Jakes? Steven Furtick? Is there anyone that is acceptable to you theologically? I agree with your assessment of Jesus Culture but I'd also like to ask what makes the music and style of the "Great Hymns of the faith" so superior to modern worship bands? Does Scripture prescribe a particular formula for a song of praise other than Jesus being central to all? I just find it troubling that you find it necessary to defend traditional Christian hymns as being directly from God when, in reality, there isn't much difference except for the musical style and some of the repetitive songs aren't, admittedly, quite as theologically rich. I would just ask you to consider the possibility that some of your assessments could be incorrect. Thank you for the thoughts you present here but I would politely disagree with the assessment of the reading of Ephesians as "Lectio Divina-lite." The speakers were simply reading scripture and asking God to speak to them THROUGH the scripture, not through any additional audible voice.

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    1. Hi Scott,

      I believe the videos at the end of many of EBenz's blog entries answer your first question. John MacArthur, Don Green, Phil Johnson, Steve Lawson and Paul Washer are just a few of the theologically sound pastors that can be counted upon to deliver the word, rightly divided. I believe it also answers your second question. And the third.

      As far as music style goes, I don't think anyone objects to a style on the basis of it being new. I'll defer to what MacArthur said on the topic:

      "I think you have to be very careful with music, musical form that is inseparably linked to the base expressions of the culture. ...because music in culture has always been the leading edge of sin and wickedness ... the content is critical and crucial. Music is a way to convey information. It’s a way to do it in a memorable sense so that people hear it, remember it and can repeat it. And we have a responsibility to make sure that what they’re hearing, remembering and repeating is the best and the truest. So content is absolutely critical. ... But even at that point you say, “I can’t expect this great glorious content about God to survive and convey the right...the right truth if it’s wrapped in a vehicle that everybody can’t disconnect from sex and drugs." More here
      http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/GTY110/contemporary-worship-civil-war-in-the-church

      Personally I enjoy the old hymns because they are more doctrinally rich and they have stood the test of time. We consider a song has staying power if it is played and remembered ten years later (What was the Dove Song of the year in 2003, anyone? Anyone?) but Blessed Assurance was written in 1873 and Amazing Grace in 1779.

      As far as Lectio Divina goes, it is a pagan/Gnostic practice that the bible condemns (Col 2:8). I think the jumbo-tron behind Moore?Piper/Chan blaring "Jesus, speak to me, Jesus speak to me" is an indication that they expected a little more than simply studying the word as we are told to do. When Phillip encountered the Ethiopian eunuch he ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” (Acts 8:30). Philip did not say 'be still and see what the scriptures say to you in the silence, good luck, see ya later' No. Phillip told him the good news of Jesus. He explained the scriptures. What pastor wouldn't die to have a stadium full of silent hearers ready to receive the Good News of Jesus? But Piper passed up the explanation and let the silence do its dark work. This is why we grieve over that lost moment.

      A tare is not just a tare, and a little falsity is not just a little falsity. We need to have a high regard for Jesus and fervently protect and guard the faith and out brethren within it. We praise when praise is due and we warn when warning is due, all the while walking closely with Jesus.

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    2. I often publish people's comments before I have time to actually respond to them. Inevitably, one of my readers comes along and answers for me, in a far more eloquent and comprehensive manner than I could have done. So with that, I have nothing else to add. Many thanks, Elizabeth!

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    3. I take this as a loving admonishment for "Me" to slow down and give you more time on your blog to respond. This is your blog Well, The Lords. But I do apologize that I comment sometimes in a hoggish way without giving you the respect you deserve.

      I think of it like the cook in a kitchen. I was raised where we were all taught to sit down and we could not eat until the cook sat down began eating first...

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    4. LOL, that is not at all what I was trying to do, Linda! You all know that I actually don't have much time to respond to comments, which is why most of the time I let you all hash things out while I stay quiet! This particular post is a bit different, the warnings contained within it are so important that I'm trying my best to at least acknowledge most comments. But keep the comments coming, and don't wait for the cook to eat first! :)

      Besides, like I said, my readers are far more eloquent in their responses than I would be, so I greatly welcome them!

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  16. Would you rather have those 60000 students listen to Lil Wayne, Wiz Khalifa, and/or Eminem and their words daily or Jesus Culture's music?

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    1. I would rather my generation listen to worship music that exalts the true, biblical Jesus. I would rather they listen to artists that sing of His full counsel and proclaim the gospel, not just experiences, feelings, and encounters; none of which are inherently wrong but can become so when they are elevated above the word of God. But I have come to realize that this is what Jesus Culture does, as sincere and genuine as they may be, they don't lead people to repentance and faith, they lead people into encounters and experiences and claim that those will change you. Again, I am not saying that encounters/emotions/experiences are wrong but they should be a result of His truth, they should never be the primary thing you are seeking. If you want more of Him you should start at His word, seek Him through that and you will find Him.

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  17. In the midst of all the criticism, I felt the need to comment and let you know that I thought a lot about what you and the other commenters said and did a lot of searching and digging on my own, and I got rid of my Jesus Culture music. This is actually something that I was warned of a couple months ago, but I brushed it off because I liked their music and did not want to stop listening, I believe the Lord used this post to stir everything back up in my heart and mind, and lead me to the truth I tried to reject.

    I had the same mentality that many of the other commenters had which was that if they are sincerely singing these beautiful declarations of love to Jesus than how can they be wrong? So what if their doctrine is a little off, they clearly love Jesus right? Who am I to say that they are wrong?

    But the thing is, you can be sincere but be sincerely wrong. A person's intentions do matter but at the same time are almost irrelevant as they have no bearing on if a person is right or wrong. The more I took a close look at JC music and message the more I could see the problems, not just with their theology, but with the way they worship. I looked at their song lyrics, I analyed the things they said, particularly Kim Walker and Banning Liebsher (I know I butchered his last name). And literally all I heard was love, encounter, experience, feel, nothing that even resembled the gospel. That is basically Kim's whole testimony! Sure, they occasionally say things like "my debt is paid" and "conquer the grave" that hint at the gospel but don't really proclaim it. To them, the gospel is that "once you encounter God's love you are never the same!" As I said in another comment, these things are not inherently wrong, but should always be coupled with His truth, with His word! It grieves me that I, and the many who still are, thought that I wanted more of God- and I sincerely did- but a lot of the times I was chasing a feeling and an experience. Many times I would be in despair, even questioning my own salvation, because I did not 'feel' His love for me or hear Him speaking. Even though I had His word at my fingertips!

    I am not going to say anymore because I don't want to be too lengthy, but to those who aggressively defend JC, I would invite you to do what I did, and really examine their doctrine/theology, their lyrics, what they preach, as well as the doctrine/theology that comes out of their church. Pray and seek the Lord through His word and let Him lead you to the truth, ask him to examine and and reveal to you what is in your heart. I asked and He did, and I tearfully repented, but He is rich in mercy and grace and quick to forgive!

    One more thing, doctrine matters!! I can't say that enough and this is something that I am realizing more and more. It matters!!!!!!! What you believe about God and who He is, matters eternally.

    Erin, Linda, and Robin, thank you for your prayers and words of wisdom! I appreciate this blog Erin, keep doing what you're doing, keep saying what unfortunately many others will not bother to say. I hope you'll be encouraged by this. Sorry for the length!

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    1. Oh Crystal, I have tears of thankfulness in my eyes to the Lord for YOU!. Praise JESUS, praise HIM for His name is Wonderful and thank you for your wonderful testimony and earnest search for the truth. The LORD has graciously and gently wooed you back into His loving arms with the TRUTH.

      "The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy"

      Praise the Lord Jesus!

      Thank you EBenz for your faithfulness and having a HEART to expose this even if only ONE Person -would be freed from this prettifying, sugarcoated down veneer so that they are no longer exploited with false worship

      I'm excited for you Crystal~

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  18. Far more than encouragement, Crystal, your comment has given me yet another reason to praise God today!

    Thank you so much for sharing your testimony here; I pray that it will be an encouragement to others to 'test the spirits,' and to seek the truth of God in regard to these dangerous groups.

    And literally all I heard was love, encounter, experience, feel, nothing that even resembled the gospel. That is basically Kim's whole testimony! Sure, they occasionally say things like "my debt is paid" and "conquer the grave" that hint at the gospel but don't really proclaim it. To them, the gospel is that "once you encounter God's love you are never the same!"

    Yes, this is precisely the concern of so many! What they say may not always be untrue, but when they claim to proclaim the gospel, is it truly the gospel? As you've so eloquently pointed out, it is not. Further, when Kim Walker-Smith talks about encountering or experiencing God, she means much more than what many realize. To her, it is talking with Jesus face-to-face, whereas we know that we encounter God in His Word, that glorious book that He so graciously gave to us containing all the truth we need to know.

    It grieves me that I, and the many who still are, thought that I wanted more of God- and I sincerely did- but a lot of the times I was chasing a feeling and an experience. Many times I would be in despair, even questioning my own salvation, because I did not 'feel' His love for me or hear Him speaking. Even though I had His word at my fingertips!

    Many of us have been there, Crystal, and while it grieves us to see how we were sinning against God, He is faithful and just and will forgive us for that when we ask Him, as you already have. He has already demonstrated this in bringing you to a recognition of the truth.

    One more thing, doctrine matters!!

    AMEN! One of the biggest lies being told to your generation is that, because doctrine divides (which it does, the truth always will), then it should not matter. But without correct doctrine, we cannot be saved! To be sure, we may not have it all right from the start, but if we do not teach sound doctrine, we do harm, potentially eternal harm, to human souls.

    Once again, thank you so much for sharing all of this, Crystal. I know many here were praying for you (myself included) and will continue to do so. Now my prayer especially will be that others will see your story and will seek the truth as you did.

    God bless you, Crystal!

    ~Erin

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    1. Crystal, would you mind if I published your comments as a stand-alone post? Your words are words that should not be hidden in the comment string. :) Let me know.

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  19. Thanks again for your prayers and encouragement Erin and Linda. What a loving and merciful God He is! Indeed, He graciously disciplines, convicts, and guides into truth all who are His own.

    I am also praying that many will seek the truth and take an honest look at themselves. I hope that the people at Passion will take God at His word and not need any extra confirmation, vision, or revelation; I include myself in this prayer!

    Yes of course you can publish my comment, I am humbled that you would want to! I will be praying that you and so many others continue to, as Linda said, faithfully expose error and proclaim the truth. God Bless!

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  20. Well I have listened to Pastor Judah's massages and it has changed my life. I am student from South Africa and I am planning to attend Passion 2014. Honestly i wish i didn't come across this blog because it is very confusing. I am happy because i believe that lives were changed at Passion and that people gave their lives to Jesus, which is what Passion conf is all about.

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    1. That is amazing! I attended Passion 2013 this year and I have been a believer in the Lord Jesus for almost 17 years now. My experience at Passion was nothing short of amazing. The Lord was clearly at work in the lives of myself and so many other students there. People ask me all the time how do I know that the Lord is alive and working in our world today and my only answer is that I have felt his presence and I know he is working in my life. I encourage you to spend time in the word and not on this blog. The lord speaks in many different ways and he has sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us and he promises he will never leave us or forsake us. And the best part about a promise from God is that his promises are true and unwavering!

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    2. Anonymous~

      I would also be interested to know how you know that you are "feeling" the Lord's presence? Can you show us in Scripture where we are to base our faith in our feelings?

      you stated -"The lord speaks in many different ways"---Really? I know God's word in Hebrews 1:1 says that "(In the past) God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,"

      BUT~~"In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,",,, Heb.1:2a

      Someone is pulling the wool over your eyes

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  21. Good discussion. I would point out, however, that hymns and their music "style" were the base expressions of the culture back when many of them were written. Some hymns are superior theologically to songs of today, and some songs of today are more theologically sound than some Hymns written in the golden era of hymns.

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  22. Hi, my name's Taylor. This is an interesting point for you to bring up, and I appreciate gaining another perspective on the conference. With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree. Using your example of Jesus Culture, while I can see your suspicion and read through the points you gave, I do not see Biblical evidence to support it. They are very Spirit-led, which may be different from what many are used to or accustomed to, but that does not mean that, because the Spirit uses them to lead people into "encounters" and experiences that they are invalid. You are right to say that one-time encounters and emotion-filled experiences are not the basis of Christianity, but there are many people who can attest to having been forever changed by one encounter with Christ. I think that is the moment Jesus Culture is trying to lead people into, and I think that it is beautiful. I also do not think defining them as promoting "Covering Theology" or anything similar is based on truth; who are we to judge their intentions? There were even people who thought Jesus was demon-possessed (see John 7:20). I wholeheartedly agree that our view of Biblical truth should not be based on feeling. However, I strongly believe that they do not solely "stir up emotional passions" in their music. There is Biblical truth all throughout. Their song "Rooftops" references seeking truth, God's perfect grace, being set free because of Him, proclaiming His name from the rooftops (Matthew 10:27 or Luke 12:3), sharing God's love across the love, and to God as three different names, all Biblical: the One, the Son, and the Everlasting God. I love hymns, personally, and think that the truth laced in them is beautiful; however, I think while displayed differently in Jesus Culture's music because of their particular style and because of the style of music today, that thickness of truth is still present. They are not leading people into emotional experiences but instead into adoration of God. Their songs combine Biblical truth and principles with experiences of the Holy Spirit that are often associated with emotion, and I think together they create songs of worship that lead people's hearts to God as seen in the Psalms. Have you ever known anyone, specifically, who was led away from God by their worship? I have not. But I have known so many people that have been led to God through them, and have desired closer relationship and have served him further because of them.
    You say in your writing that it is alarming that they have claimed to have received direct revelation and guidance from God. Is there something wrong with this? You said this reveals that these revelations are "only love and supernatural experience." God, his being, is supernatural - naturally, our intimate encounters with him will be supernatural as well. And God, his being, is Love - which includes repentance and sanctification - naturally, his word to us would be love. Has the Lord never spoken simply a word of love to you? Did he not do this all throughout the Bible?
    I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

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  23. Hi Taylor and thank you for introducing yourself.

    I've only recently heard of Jesus Culture with this blog since I'm not familiar with them. The more I dig and the deeper I go to find info on them and who they espouse, the more I am greatly disturbed.

    I came across a video from the Sola Sisters blog called "Bethel Church Soaking up the "anointing" of dead men." ---http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LrHPTs8cLls

    raideragent his youtube channel and you'll see it if you watch-
    had a commenter say "Is Jesus Culture alright -=]"

    raideragent's reply was: "No, not in my opinion. They're all connected to Bethel and Bethel is connected to the New Apostolic Reformation. It's a "different gospel". Bill said it first, not me. Just watch my other video called, "Bill Johnson- False teacher".

    This is occultic and very unbiblical

    God has said "'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' [fn]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." -Matthew 22:32

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    1. Hi Linda. :) It's nice to meet you, this is Taylor again.
      I watched the video you posted, thank you for sharing it with me. It was interesting to watch, as I'm not as familiar with Bethel church as I am with Jesus Culture. I would be interested to hear your opinion as to what the fundamental teachings of the New Apostolic Reformation are exactly.
      With that said, I am aware they come from Bethel Church which promotes the New Apostolic Reformation, but looking on Jesus Culture's website, I do not feel as though I can justly associate them directly with all the beliefs of the New Apostolic Reformation, as they did not mention it in their beliefs as a band. Perhaps they did not because they do not agree with the entire doctrine.

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    2. Hi Taylor,

      If I may interject (sorry for "interrupting" this conversation!). You said, "I do not feel as though I can justly associate them [Jesus Culture] directly with all the beliefs of the New Apostolic Reformation."

      If you look at the sermons available on Jesus Culture's website—which are talks delivered at Jesus Culture events—you'll see names such as Cindy Jacobs and Lou Engle have been welcomed and promoted by the band. These two are leaders within the NAR. If the band did not agree with their teaching, surely they would not invite them to teach at their events, would they? Some food for thought.

      Blessings to you, Taylor.

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  24. Hello. I just wanted to make a few comments regarding something you said about Kim Walker or whatever her name may be and her experience with Jesus and God the Father. I think you said that her experience was not real and or sounded like that is what you think of her experience. I would not recommend Jesus Culture or the third wave to anyone. But I have to tell you that I have met people who's loved ones have been to conferences or churches associated with Jesus Culture and Bethel Church who have had similar experiences. One of these places is known as IHOP. I was talking with one mother of a junior high school or maybe high school student (I am not exactly sure) who went to IHOP and came back and told their mom how he went to IHOP and fell on the floor and had a vision of or saw Jesus and heaven. I have been to and have checked out a couple charismatic/third wave churches myself as well as some conferences with well known third wave leaders and have heard the same kind of experiences. My conclusion is that people are having real experiences not only of "seeing Jesus or visiting heaven" type but also of things such as holy laughter, shaking, falling, screaming, crying, etc....So when I read your comments I just had to tell you that there is something supernatural, as opposed to natural, going on in the charismatic/third wave movement. The question then comes down to: are the supernatural things happening in these churches and movements from the God of the Bible or from something else such as demons or the enemy or spirits. I would just say that people should stay away from Jesus Culture and all the other ministries associated with NAR. I know there is something supernatural going on as opposed to simply just natural human manipulation because I have seen it myself. People lay hands on people and impart (called impartations) things to other people. Then those people start being able to know private things about people they would not have known otherwise. They start getting "revelations" or "words" and such things start to happen in their life.

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    1. You brought up a very, excellent point...I don't doubt they are experiencing supernatural manifestations of some sort. They are NOT from God --for God is HOLY and "without holiness NO ONE will see the Lord"-Heb.12:14. I didn't see holiness, reverence and nor did I see the crying out from conscience stricken hearts because of sin.I saw an emotional, clap-happy feeling or euphoria.

      True worship occurs ONLY when the spirit of a man or woman, which is akin to the divine nature (for “God is spirit") actually meets with God and finds itself praising God for (who he is).

      True movements of God ALWAYS humble a person and brings a sense of FEAR, awe and reverence and it always brings a conviction of one's SIN-"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".

      They are experiencing the demonic realm because God doesn't move and reveal himself in uncouth ways. This is why this blog and other Christians are sounding the clarion call of WARNING out of love before it's too late for people to wake up and stop following movements, repent and follow Jesus Christ of Scripture.


      The word of God clearly says in 2Thes. 2:9 "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

      Jesus even warned ahead of time. Most people are so credulous to believe it all comes from God. Most people WANT to believe it all comes from God because they don't believe they are being deceived. It's so wonderful, beautiful, and makes them "feel" so good.

      "Satan masquerades as angel of LIGHT"--and there are many men/women who "are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ." -2 Cor. 11:13-14

      Masquerade means to wear a disguise or pretend to be someone else. Deception, cloak, camouflage

      probably the greatest deception of all-they are deceiving themselves. Why? because they want this to really be of GOD. We must come to God through Christ ONLY-HIS WAY. That is we must worship God “in Christ,” with Jesus at the center of everything, for it is ONLY in Christ that we can even approach God at all or know who God actually is. Jesus taught this when he said, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life”. No one comes to the Father except through me-John 14:6.

      "our hearts are deceitful and utterly wicked above all things, who can know it"-Jeremiah 17:9.

      ~"Take HEED that NO MAN deceive you"-Jesus Mat.24:4a------>>

      Mat 24:24b "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

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  25. Taylor, from all that I've read the NAR is a heretical movement basically started by C. Peter Wagner. They basically believe in the New Apostles and Prophets who will restore dominion on this earth through signs and wonders rather than Jesus thus the name New Apostolic Reformation...Mr. Wagner takes one word in Genesis-Dominion and contorts it to mean-taking back the dominion which to them is what the Gospel is actually all about. Their whole premise is false and their whole theology is built on that one word Instead of me painstakingly trying to explain it to you and thus sidetrack this thread, here are some links. You will need to do a large amount of reading but it's worth knowing what these people are teaching

    http://discernmentministriesinternational.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-apostolic-and-prophetic-movement/

    http://discernmentministriesinternational.wordpress.com/?s=Lou+Engle

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.html

    http://discernmentministriesinternational.wordpress.com/category/apostolic-movement/

    (New Apostolic Reformation) Manifest Sons of God, now known as JOEL'S ARMY and their NEW BREED video-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wIlo49N5AhA

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  26. I came to this site to learn more about NAR, which I did. But I was very disturbed by some of the statements made about aspects of the Passion 2013 and Jesus Culture.
    Someone commented, "True worship occurs ONLY when the spirit of a man or woman,... actually meets with God and finds itself praising God for (who he is). True movements of God ALWAYS humble a person and brings a sense of FEAR, awe and reverence and it always brings a conviction of one's SIN-"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"."
    True movements of God ALWAYS...brings a sense of FEAR? The thing about God that drew me to him was his love. I spent years being afraid of God, and just kept running. But it was God's love that kept pulling me back until I felt safe enough to trust him. That was 40 years ago and I have never regretted that decision. And my life was never the same.
    Someone said, "I didn't see holiness, reverence and nor did I see the crying out from conscience stricken hearts because of sin. I saw an emotional, clap-happy feeling or euphoria."
    What does holiness and reverence look like? Is there only one way to express that? And are you saying that every time Jesus Culture gets together to worship or lead worship, they should be conscience stricken because of sin? But if they are redeemed, why should they be conscience stricken when they come to worship (assuming they have nothing to repent of). Rather there should be great joy in what God in Christ has done. There are a whole variety of ways to worship God (as seen in the Psalms), including dancing/jumping (David even danced before the ark in his underwear and apparently that made God very happy).
    We are created sensory beings so I don't think enjoying the presence of God is a bad thing. The Scripture is full of emotional humans who do some really strange things—Jeremiah and Ezekiel for starters. Even Jesus did some strange things that others didn't understand. And in the Scripture, God is described as experiencing anger, jealousy, compassion, love, joy, pleasure, etc. Whether they are physical, emotional, or mental, we don't live detached from our senses. So why should our worship be detached from our senses?
    Someone said, “In all of human history, the Lord has always put the TRUE worship model out there along with the false.”
    What is the TRUE worship model? All we have in Scripture is words. We have no idea what the instruments the Jews used sounded like. We have no idea what their melodies were like, nor their rhythms or percussion. Handel's music is European and came long after the time of Jesus. The Bible says nothing about what worship music should sound like. It does say that the singers in the temple were to prophesy in song, that the people often danced and sang in worship, and the early church sang songs together, but no one today knows what that looked or sounded like. And why should another ethnic group adopt a European genre of music, rather than worship God with their own unique styles?
    Someone said that true worship happens when a man or woman "actually meets with God,,," The implication is that the members of Jesus Culture are meeting with something/someone other than God. And how do you know that?
    As for repeating words and phrases, in the book of Revelation, whenever the four living creatures cry Holy, Holy Holy, the 24 elders fall down and sing "You are worthy our Lord and God..." This is repeated in heaven numerous times. Why not on earth?
    The Psalmist says “Enter into his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise.” And when Elisha wanted to hear from the Lord, he called for a musician to play, and then the spirit of the Lord came upon him and he prophesied (2 Kings 3:13-15). Music paved the way to “hearing from the Lord.”
    There have been many dogmatic statements made, about Jesus Culture's music and the modes of worship that took place at Passion 2013, but I am not convinced by your arguments that they are experiencing supernatural manifestations of another sort.

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    1. Anonymous,

      It's called worshiping a HOLY GOD! When a born again-someone who has the Holy Spirit living in them worships the Lord, they are going to encounter HIM as Isaiah did-"High and exalted". Then we will see how utterly unworthy we are and will be prostrate in our hearts before the LORD.. Immediately, we look to JESUS and the Cross and praise GOD with Joy that we are able to come before Him ONLY because of Jesus Christ. When a Christian meats with God he doesn't just worship Jesus, he worships God the FATHER "in truth and in Spirit". That means we cannot just worship Jesus separately-John 4:24.. True communion and union with GOD is THROUGH Jesus Christ

      Tell me, where was the FATHER honored? Was Jesus Culture really worshiping God "High and exalted" with Kim's leading the crowd with her uncouth babbling, swaying around almost in a trance? I didn't see any fear of God's holiness and reverence.

      It might come as a shock to you but Jesus said "I do not accept praise from men"-John 5:41.. Praise and worship Jesus all you want in your own novel way, but it's not accepted unless one (obtains) (the praise) that comes from the only God!-John 5:44. True worship and praising GOD comes FROM GOD the Father to His SON which is the ONLY acceptable praise and worship, HE accepts. WE don't work it up to some fever pitch or work up some emotions and fashion it up in ourselves. WE get to enjoy the privilege and honor of worshiping JESUS because of the Holy Spirit in us communing with HIS Spirit by His matchless GRACE.

      Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord, that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

      “Who among the gods is like you, O LORD? Who is like you----majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders?” asked Moses Ex. 15:11.

      FEAR. I'm not talking about the kind of fear that fears God's wrath. We who are born again are God's children and are no longer condemned.
      The proper FEAR that a Child of God should have in Greek is called (atobos)-capable of reverence fear-it's the kind that hates evil-Proverbs 8:13.

      The other kind of fear that you are referring to is called (phobos) and it has to do with punishment. This kind of fear shrinks back, flees and runs away from God. Fear (yirah or yirahin)in Hebrew means reverence, piety, awe, and a longing to get closer to God.

      A Child of God does not FEAR God (phobos)because we have been forgiven and come "boldly to God's throne of Grace". Not on our own but ONLY because of the blood of the Lamb is our covering -We are fully covered by the righteous robes of Jesus Christ.

      Note: I apologize if I didn't spell the Hebrew and Greek properly. I had written it in my bible a long time ago and it's a bit faded...

      I sincerely Hope this helps in pointing you to the truth

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  27. Hello,
    I'm new hear. After reading several of Erin's articles, and many of the comments on this one topic, I'm encouraged. The more "exposed" I am to what is portrayed as "modern christianity", the more I realize how really small the remnant has become, and it shrinks day by day.
    Worship is not something we practice. It is something we experience. In John's gospel, our LORD said this.....

    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    So just how does HE "manifest" HIMself to us? That's HIS business, at HIS choosing. But this I know from personal experience, when HE does, worship will happen. Spontaneous worship. Sometimes too much for words...only a groan, or simple silent protration on one's face before HIM. Oh HIS splendor cannot produce otherwise. You won't need to wait for a "special event". You will live a special event.
    Oh and don't expect HIS "manifestation" to be in a glory cloud with lightening shooting out everywhere. You'll find it among the hungry, the naked, the sick and imprisoned.

    These "angels of light" must be exposed. Someone once said, in order to show a stick to be "crooked", one need only lay a straight one beside it. I think Erin does this wonderfully, using scripture to unmask the deceivers.

    This brings me to the final point I'd like to make. There needs to be at some point, a distinction made between those who call themselves "christians", and those who are truly part of the living body of the MESSIAH. Just because someone says they are "christian", does not mean they have repented of ALL their sins, and live to obey the FATHER and live holy (separate) before HIM. The people spoken of in this article, do not bear the fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT, and they are not "christian". We need to make this distinction obvious to whosoeverwill listen. I am not one with them. I am one with HIM. They don't know the difference, but I do. I think most of you do too. May the LORD richly bless you for your galant warfare here.

    Humbly before HIM,

    Lahry Sibley
    Winslow, Arizona
    http://whosoeverwill.ning.com
    lahry4u@yahoo.com

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